EXT Episode 017 Raw Data

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1	Thanks for your interest in The Question! Sign up to participate in future questions here. This file is the raw data from Episode 17, deep dive hosted on April 11, 2024 with Ben Callahan and Niamh Hoey. There are 58 answers. The question this week was: ----- Niamh and I were chatting the other day about a controversial role on design system teams—the product manager. Interestingly, nobody denies that the skills of a product manager are needed to move a design system along in a healthy fashion, but many DS teams don’t have someone dedicated to these tasks. Instead, this work often falls to a designer or frontend dev who understands how critical the role is. But what do these folks actually do? Can that work be accomplished by other team members? Is it worth having someone fully dedicated? Niamh shared with me that there is both a strategic and tactical side to the job. The strategic is about casting a vision, setting goals, defining roadmaps and adoption models, and owning communication for the system. The tactical is about facilitating workshops, managing the contribution process, keeping the backlog in shape, and having a pulse on the metrics of the system. With all of this as context, here is The Question for this week: Do you have a dedicated Product Manager on your design system team? If yes, how does that person spend their time and is it valuable? If no, do you want one and what would you have them do?
2	Question 1: Do you have a dedicated Product Manager on your design system team?	Question 2: If yes, how does that person spend their time and is it valuable? If no, do you want one and what would you have them do?
3	Yes	jhg
4	Yes	Interacting with stakeholders (design, engineering and product leads), getting buy in for the vision and roadmap an an annual and quarterly basis. Our design system team operates as a product squad, working in sprints with all the associated ceremonies, so the PM facilitates sprint planning, refinement and sprint review as well as prioritising and refining tasks in the background on a day to day basis. We are a large org with 50+ squads using the design system, very high expectations and a lot of communication needed. Without a PM, the squad would lose valuable time to these tasks. Our set up allows the squad to put their expertise to the best use (i.e. designers design, engineers code, everyone supports and trains design system users)
5	Yes	I'm biased as Niamh is my PM, so I'll let her answer the question! I worked in the same design system without having a PM and I can say that it's like night and day after Niamh joined us!
6	Yes	That person is me, so I hope my time is valuable! My time is split between - the administrative tasks no one else would otherwise do, or do in a rush through gritted teeth - forming a strategy, roadmap and prioritising it into 2 week sprints - checking that 'completed' tickets or design tasks are ready for dev, and balancing design requirements, with engineering constraints and longer term business benefit (this has become contentious recently, so I'm trying to do it less, or only when it really counts - for a limited period of time to see if this improves or worsens team velocity and quality of output). - flagging risks, and engaging with SMEs to pre-empt or neuter them - engaging with stakeholders, and co-ordinating important comms or presentations - engaging in team hiring processes - on-boarding new design users, and tracking this - working with other key teams and resources to drive adoption/quality use of the system - the CMS team, DesOps - Co-ordinating the documentation site build effort with our Content Specialist, and additional comms channels (Slack) - Answering directly, or allocating support requests and queries to the help channel
7	No	If I had a product manager, I'd expect them to provide a style guide to ensure consistency of contributions across the team, develop high-level guides for how components in the design system are composed and reused in other components, provide training to bring everyone up to speed with expectations, amongst other things.
8	No	I've never worked with a dedicated Product Manager with design systems or more informal component library teams. We've either self-managed, or reported into a design/UX leader.
9	No	Unfortunately we have no PM. We would want them to update the roadmap, decide what comes first what are the urgent issues, etc. We would also want them to make sure that the existence of the design system is more visible to different departments, and to discover the connection between teams who would need to adapt the design system.
10	No	The job mostly falls to me as the listed product owner in the delivery triangle (I am a design manager). I've gone back and forth on whether or not I want one because I do think these responsibilities could fall with a design system manager pretty well if the person is okay with stepping out of design a bit. Either way, I do recognize that the role has to exist and be defined whether the job sits with me or not. Without these responsibilities being clearly delegated to a person, the system suffers with no strategic direction and overall coordination. As the listed product owner, I helped to find the strategy, shape the metrics, direct the design team, groom the backlog , create processes, and share out our wins to the broader organization and to leadership. As I've leveled up in my role, I enjoy doing these tasks which is why I don't want to ask for a product manager. But I worry if it would mean that I have to take on the title officially of product manager and step out of the design org which I don't want to do
11	Yes	This is my role :) I agree with the strategic and tactical roles you stated. I would say I split my time between external-to-the-ds-team stuff (e.g., evangelizing about the design system, reviewing work for design system feedback, taking support questions) and internal-to-the-team stuff (e.g., setting the roadmap/sprint planning, facilitating my team through ceremonies, contributing docs & design spec to the system, etc)
12	Yes	From our recent product director job description. SO Valuable! We’re looking for someone who: • Is self-motivated and passionate about Design Systems and Product Management. • Welcomes different perspectives and makes decisions respecting diverse points of view • Is well organized, a good listener, and a systems thinker. • Has the analytical skills required to understand product vision and translate it into smaller but still valuable pieces. Responsibilities include: • Collaborating with Design Systems and other Enterprise Digital leadership to understand, articulate, and realize the vision for our Design System • Evangelizing the benefits of the Design System to leadership, product, development, and design teams • Collaborating with cross-functional teams, including designers, developers, and product managers, to gather requirements and feedback for the design system. • Owning, updating and communicating the Design System roadmap, enabling our customers to know what we’re delivering and when. • Managing the backlog and prioritizing features and requirements to meet goals on time with quality. • Supporting the teams who are using the Design System by ensuring their questions are answered in a timely manner • Collaborating with our community model champions who partner with our Design System team on building out our design system • Continuously improving the practice of product management and staying current with evolving product practices and development methodologies • Successful delivering releases and features according to our roadmap • Leading the release management and communication process, ensuring our customers are aware of what we’ve released and how to take advantage of it. • Managing product metrics by defining product metric goals and the right mechanisms to collect, track, report and react to the data. Metrics include adoption, usage, internal customer satisfaction, and effectiveness of Design Systems onboarding.
13	Yes	Thankfully, my PM is Niamh herself! She's is beyond valuable in keeping our design system current, visible, collaborative, and communicating the value to our sponsors, teams and the wider organisation. We'd be lost without her.
14	No	We do not, and I wish we did. We also have a large company made of many group companies. These all do their own versions of a design system that is typically a 'side project' and usually viewed as wasteful overhead. The opportunity IMO is to staff it as a "Product Team" that builds and maintains the product we use to build out products. That concept has not gained traction yet where I am.
15	No	I don't work on a team anymore (I've rebranded as a DS consultant). That said, I used to be a Product Manager for a DS in my last permanent gig. My main responsibilities were helping the team prioritise work and communicating our vision & updates to the wider company. To help prioritise work a lot of my time would be spent talking to teams to understand their individual needs and to executives to understand the wider company vision/strategy so we were best placed to help them. With over 50 applications, I had to work with teams on their design system rollout strategy. Not all products were suitable, so we needed to make it clear where we were focusing. For ongoing work we set up a framework that helped us manage bugs, requests, etc. This helped the team prioritise and give reporters clear communication on the outcome. Communication was massive. I spent a lot of time blogging, doing presentations, updating docs and Slack updates (for releases). We also set up mini-hackathons whereby we invited teams to help us improve the DS by creating example apps and templates. Obviously needed buy-in from higher above. Another aim for me was to make the team empowered and make decisions together. To lead, not manage. I would present the company viewpoints needed to help us come to the right decision together. Each member of the team brought something different to the table. By the time I left they were virtually running themselves. Some have since left to become DS leaders themselves, which gives me great pleasure! Whether a DS needs a PM? For me depends on the size & complexity of company. Since I've started consulting, I've worked with smaller companies where simply having a clear design and development lead for escalation may be enough.
16	No	I'd love to have someone from the product management side to work through the logistics of prioritizing needs across the various teams that will are utilizing the system. Be that voice of reason in initial conversations suggesting that work should be in collaboration with the systems team.
17	No	Yes, they would own the product (I.e. design system) and make decisions on its future direction and scope.
18	Yes	Since that person is me, I do hope what I'm doing is valuable :) I set the vision and strategic priorities for the DS, define OKRs, "own" PR for the DS with communication strategy and discussing adoption roadmaps with every product team. We also have 2 "proper" product managers who supports me on the strategic side with translating the vision to roadmap items, and on the tactical side with managing the backlog and running sprints. We probably won't be able to function without them.
19		N/A
20	Yes	Yes! It's me, I am the product owner for our DS. I hope it's valuable :) As the product owner, my duties are: 1. Manage the task backlog in Jira for the designers, developers and testers. Prioritise which task gets done first. 2. Manage and schedule the outreach efforts, demos to new teams, catchups with existing adopters, training sessions, reports to leadership. 3. Manage the releases - control versioning, make sure the needs of the teams match the releases, that no major update screws up a product release, curate the release documentation, conduct the release demos. Manage the publishing of figma libraries and code repositories. 4. Be the point of contact for anyone regarding the design system. Be on call for any decisions the DS team needs me to take. 5. Assign tasks to the designers, sometimes the developers - there's a separate dev lead who takes the brunt of the dev management. Lead the bi weekly scrums/checkins for the team and monitor task completion - help team members if they get stuck on anything. 6. Manage the token and theme files and associated color palettes and assets etc. 7. Be the first person to respond when a new component or feature is requested. Meet the requesting team and kick off the process with a Jira if needed.
21	Yes	Our Product representative balances a mix of strategic and technical tasks, but their primary goal is to first and foremost understand our product (its strengths as well as short comings) in addition to the needs of our users and the general landscape that our system operates in. To perform at their best, a Product representative should be able to speak at a high-level on any team initiative in order to support stakeholders, partners, and customers, while also maintaining the ability to "zoom in" and provide clarity and confidence around work to design system team members; the latter is vital as it requires the Product person to maintain a solid understanding of all areas of the system (engineering, designs, a11y, etc) in order to give contributors the confidence and direction needed to accomplish their work and provide value. This is a highly valuable role - until recently, my design system team did not have a Product manager of any kind, and it often left my team to making assumptions about user needs, desires. and priorities, often leading to an over-extension of all involved parties (how do you support thousands of users when all of their requests are the same priority?). Having a PM can streamline this as long as they have the proper understanding of the domains they are operating in. Empowering a trusted member of the team to set priorities and communicate them out effectively while also knowing that they can't please everyone all of the time is vital to a healthy, functional team that aims to connect their deliverables to enterprise level goals (OKRs, etc) and showcase continued value from a design system.
22	No	As a design system manager (not IC, not a product manager, not a program manager), I would totally rely on a Product Manager. The PM's role should be to ensure the roadmap is sane and the backlog is ordered. And the PM needs to fight the battles of priorities and scheduling with the other teams, so the DS designers and DS engineers can focus on doing great work. And, a good PM takes the weight off of the DS manager so the DS manager can work on ensuring a healthy work environment for the team internally, and also developing relationships across the company to create more opportunities for DS adoption. Then, the PM can take over and blend the roadmaps of other teams into the DS team's roadmap.
23	No	Scrum master activities.
24	No	We've been making the case for a while now. Our pitch to leadership has been inspired by listening to and reading Maya Hampton at REI talk about her role as a design systems PM. Maintain - A groomed backlog for new releases - Jira tickets and epics alongside engineering leads - Intake and support processes - Feedback and requests Plan - Roadmaps and sprints with Design Director and Engineering Manager - Alongside other PMs and feature team leads to anticipate maximum impact for upcoming roadmaps - Planning as the product evolves, to map the product for QA purposes Measure + report - The impact of the design system, on core business goals, to ensure ongoing iteration and investment Coordinate - With in-flight and upcoming feature team roadmaps, at the PM level Envangelize - The business benefits of improving the designer/developer experience - The business benefits of cohesion, coordination, and better accessibility
25	Yes	We have a PM, but they're a name on a list. I serve in a hybrid role as strategist, PM, and direct manager for a few of the teammates.
26	No	This work falls to the DS owner and contributors. While it sounds nice to have a PM to handle all these tasks, I wonder if it wouldn't simply add an administrative layer between the DS creators and users. Would the PM have a say in the DS? Are they simply there to help get things done faster? Could they become a road block at some point?
27	Yes	Yes, we have a dedicated Product Manager, and they're incredibly valuable. They spend their time helping the team focus on aligning work with company initiatives and providing more direct impact to end-users. They also help advocated for a narrower scope of work for us, which helps us say no to things that would have less impact or are less of a priority. Our PM also spends a good amount of time with customers, which is fantastic to expose a design team to since the work can often feel insular otherwise.
28	Yes	That person is me. At times, I question if the things I'm doing is perceived as valuable. Comparatively, I often find that there can be misalignment between things I feel are important and what my bosses think are important or valuable.
29	Yes	To be exact we officially have a Scrum Master that does the job of a PM/Team Lead and defines roadmaps, writes stories for the backlog, facilitates meetings etc. The work is extremely valuable because designers and developers can then focus on their tasks and have someone focusing on the organisational and coordination aspect of the team.
30	No	This is an interesting topic. I had a DPM who was a great facilitator, conduit between design, tech and product teams. Each product team had a DPM so it felt natural and helpful to have a DS DPM managing loose ends and being the front line of our bridge and trust building. But she left and my organization decided to not back fill her role, largely because I think they have a difficult time seeing the value that role provides- or think it isn’t actually DPM responsibility. I plead my case for support but no dice for now. For design and tech owners of the DS, it means taking on some operational items that add to our responsibilities and may not be in our wheel house. As the design owner I’m working to ramp up design ops skills, it is something that I am interested in and already lightly supporting but makes me already feel like I need another set of hands in order to keep pace with what’s been set when we did have DPM, lest I become a bottleneck. Currently trying to imagine a world without DPM and how to divvy ops and other responsibilities to keep the design system healthy, together, and moving forward.
31	No	Responsibilities would probably include tactical planning and coordinating, research and opportunity discovery, as well as socializing work with the product org. Currently, we split up PM responsibilities amongst ourselves, but the brunt of the work is juggled by our design director and our engineering manager.
32	No	Yes, I would like one. Right now, that falls to the UX practitioners on our team. In some instances, UX has been confused for project management by our stakeholders. Since we have many specialists in our organization, it would be nice to have someone dedicated to multi-disciplinary organization and staying in the loop between leadership expectations and what is happening on the day to day.
33	No	We don't have a dedicated role due to our small team size, but many organizations we work with do have dedicated PMs. A lot of the work they do is around either a) working with leadership to secure / maintain support for ongoing and often growing investment, b) working with other product teams to align priorities to make sure the DS is supporting them vs. adding to them, and/or c) helping coordinate cross-functional decision making within the DS team. There are a lot of decisions to make that need to take in multiple diverse perspectives and rarely have right answers.
34	Yes	It's me for my team :) I spend all my time doing work outlined above, but also something very important that isn't mentioned is being able to prioritize and execute our work with both design and engineering teams and understanding the software development process. We very often hear that one of the main challenges for a DS is getting designers and eng teams to adopt the same priorities and I'm able to do that.
35		N/A
36	No	It's interesting to think about how we apply the names of roles to the work that someone does in a team. In this case, it can be a PM that does the day to day running, the arranging, the strategy building. But when it comes down to it, that person may have a different role name but effectively be doing the exact same work. And really that's what matters. On a design system team, you have designers and you have engineers. Each of those disciplines is likely to have a lead. But they already have responsibilities within the context of the team. That means that you need one person who looks at the team holistically - otherwise you are in danger of your team working in silos, not having a strategy or roadmap and generally struggling to ship anything. Quite often at the beginning of a design system teams journey, one or more people in the team will take on that role alongside their own work of design or engineering. As time progresses and the design system grows, it becomes more likely you'll need a person that does the role of leading the team on a full time basis. In some companies, that's a PM or it might be a program manager, or they might have another name for that role. But at the end of the day, they are the one that keeps the team moving, helps build vision, understand what success looks like, measure that, run planning, understand resourcing and a billion other things. Could someone on the team that is a designer or engineer do this work? Definitely, but they either do it while taking time away from their core job. Or they end up doing it full time in which case they are no longer doing their original role. Teams without someone fulfilling these responsibilities are likely to hit some bumps along the road. Without the tactics mentioned by Niamh, it will take the team longer to execute. And without the strategic intitiatives, the team might end up working on iterative pieces of work as they don't understand where their biggest opportunities lie.
37	Yes	Evangelising the Design System, coordinating with other scrum teams contributions, component needs, ect, managing dependencies, prioritising, ROI, Customer satisfaction survey, Jira maintenance, dealing with stakeholders, managing comms, newsletter, process... Unlike in any other product team, on the DS scrum team the design team are the ones that write the requirements (instead of the PMs)
38	No	Right now, we don't, but I have worked with programme, product, and delivery managers on systems in the past. They've all had some overlap in terms of responsibilities, with some nuances in skill and focus areas depending on the team and role. When I worked with a product manager, we also had a delivery manager who shared responsibilities with us in part-time capacities. Our product manager was much more outcomes-focused and worked with us to create solid KPIs and kept us on track. Our delivery manager would establish our working model, and ran our rituals, which worked well as we were establishing a system, it also made sense they were part-time, as we didn't need someone doing that kind of work full time. When I worked with a programme manager, we were working on the rebrand, and we needed someone to keep us focused and aligned. I honestly don't think we could have done the volume of work without them. They coordinated the team, ran all of our rituals (quarterly planning, sprint planning, retros, standups), kept us all in check, and ensured we weren't blowing scope so that we could deliver something. In addition to this, they coordinated all other teams so that we had maximum adoption. I'm now in a position (as I have in cycles) where I don't have either. I feel the responsibilities of these roles fall on design and engineering, which is especially prevalent within a bigger design system team. I think a lot less confident in our team without them. A note on my thoughts on these roles within teams — I think each has pros and cons. Still, Programme managers make much more sense in a system's space as they consider the internal aspects of systems, which have different responsibilities to their users (system subscribers).
39	No	I would say that I am the closest to a product manager, driving initiatives and laying out the roadmap for the system. For now, this works, but ideally, if we were to have a dedicated resource I would really want them to be more involved with the business; to add more priority and focus to the system tasks, and better balance it with the rest of the ongoing initiatives in our team / project.
40	No	No, we didn’t need a PM for the DS, because it was small. In this case, you don't need a lot of people around the DS. All you have to do is ask a couple of specific questions to some people, and there is no need in a special role.
41	No	We do not have one, but I think a PM would help align timelines, and prioritize current tasks. Primarily our team could use the help with managing our ever-changing roadmap: triage requests, create a roadmap of said requests in relation to the requesting team's roadmap. Ideally the PM would communicate, and followup with other teams and ensure our work goes out smoothly to subscribers. Most tactical items like workshops and managing contribution process is currently done by Designers and Engineers, and we are happy doing these tasks - but could always use some extra help.
42	No	Yes, we want a product manager to lead us to understanding where the product has been and leading up through product maturity in the best way possible.
43	Yes	Hmmm Yes and no.. a good product manager can be the link between the product teams and their roadmaps and the design system teams priority, but most importantly drive the vision and mission of the design system within the org and the team. Keep the team fueled and focussed on the goals and set a direction for the system to go (i.e. focus on the launch of a redesign, focus on helping teams launch a new product, etc.). Without a PM doing this the team could end up like a ship without a captain. In my experience. My current PM is not needed as they were hired to just do PM things, without any knowledge of design systems, and how to drive adoption. All they did was look at the backlog and prioritize. The vision and mission was up to the rest of the team, but few of them were real design system enthousiasts (which makes me think of a question: “Should designers and engineers be passionate about design systems to make a successful design system?”) which leads to a lack of innovation and just “pushing backlog tasks” without asking why. So yeah. A PM can make a major difference in my opinion, but not just any PM. A PM with a passion for design systems, that knows how to plat the game, and knows how to implement design/engineering at scale.
44	No	Yes, mainly to be an advocate for its use
45	No	Advocating for the system and understanding teams requirements before getting engineers and designers involved. We have our lead UX engineer doing that right now
46	No	We have a Manager for our Design System Team. How many managers do we need?
47	Yes	Our technical/dev lead is currently taking on the role of a Product Manager in some capacity. They keep the team in-line with expectations and help to wrangle complexity. They also help with planning tasks for the future. Our Project Manager is also involved with day-to-day tasks. I'd really like someone to take more control of timelines and planning/backlog grooming. We go through phases where we have a lot going on simultaneously and other phases where we feel quite stagnant/unsure of the status of different tasks.
48	No	We have a Product Manager, but they are not solely dedicated to our team - their time is split between our team and another.
49	No	If I had a product manager they would... Help identify the strategy for the broader team, connecting design and technical initiatives. Help define the "what" while leaving design and tech leads to figure out the "how". They would facilitate PI planning, driving prioritization. Be a trusted partner. Build strong, healthy relationships within the product management organization - helping to build our network and ability to influence the organization Be accountable to manage audit/risk and other "well managed" aspects of the team Help to manage stakeholders Own OKR definition and measurement
50	No	We don't currently have an official product manager that spans across all the products that our design system is intended to cover. We have one product manager who is seen as temporary, and focused on a single product - but they lack the mandate to lean into the adoption initiative more broadly. My role as a design program manager is bridging that gap - both strategic & tactical - as you've defined above. It's complicated!
51	I am between positions at the moment	A Product Manager is extremely useful for both the strategic and tactical sides of products. Having dedicated person to "mind the shop" allowing the remaining UX staff to focus on their respective specialities
52	Currently freelancing and not employed with a company with a team. However, at the last company I worked for, the answer would have been no.	I'm not on a team currently, but I hope that when I join one in the future they have a Product Manager. * Help set the vision and roadmap * Help advocate for the DS and get it visibility throughout the org * Help protect the time of those dedicated to the DS * Help advocate for major updates to the DS when they are necessary
53	No	I feel the need pretty strongly. We've got some product teams hoping to make some heavyweight contributions. Our leaders see this as free labor, but they don't see all the effort that needs to go into coordinating this work
54	Yes	my product manager is also a people manager, so she splits duty so we share some of the responsibilities listed under "strategic" and "tactical"
55	Yes	In my experience at a large company having a dedicated PM unlocked huge value. They were able to build relationships with our feature/product teams, get DS adoption on product roadmaps and communicate our goals across the company.
56	No	It would be great to have a dedicated Product Manger that could focus mostly on the tactical aspects of the design system. We, as a team, have found it hard to prioritize the tactical work that needs to be done to grow our community of users. This is something we are trying to spend more time focusing on but having a dedicated resource that could manage this would be really helpful.
57	No	we are hiring for a position as a product manager dedicated to our future design system.
58	No	Our design system PM is shared amongst a “frontend platform” squad. While I would prefer a dedicated one, I’d prioritize design being part of it as well. Our designers are a separate unit and share responsibility. My dream would be dedicated designer or designers and a dedicated PM. I would want the PM to focus on user interviews with implementation teams for improving existing items and adding new items to a roadmap
59	Yes	My product manager that I have now is so awesome! She keeps our roadmap moving forward. Prioritizes work for the teams and makes sure that everyone has what they need. I love that I can ask her to clarify how things work and how things need to work when it comes to our tech stack. I am really enjoying working with her.
60	Yes	I selected yes because a) I currently am a team of one therefore acting as PM as much as anything else, and b) I have previously held the role of PM for a design system team of ~4 design, ~4 eng, ~2 mgrs, supporting ~70 global product teams. As PM, here’s some of what I did: - Regularly checked library usage data to identify components with the most usage; with the most overrides; the teams using n-1 major version. - Reviewed design-dev handoff practices with product team designers; researched where product designers were recreating something that was already a component and why. - Designed and managed component audit process comparing UI kit to what was in code, assessed every component for design inconsistencies, design-to-code inconsistencies, accessibility issues, right-to-left flexibility, states, and more. - To validate a full technical rebuild of the library, did interviews with product team stakeholders across the global org. - Created a technical proposal template and rubric of factors to assess a technical direction. Managed the team through r&d and prototyping of three different technical directions and assessments of those. - Explored the risks of rollout, from trying to get the org to use Figma, to whether eng teams would even be willing to use the new library; communicated those risks to leadership for decision making. - Got commitment from 8 early adopter teams to add library adoption to their team OKRs, mitigating risk of non-adoption. - Met with their PMs and key engineers to learn their goals, listen to their fears and concerns, answer questions. I reviewed those questions with my team and did regular follow-up, then shared with teams early demos that specifically showcased issues to their problems. - Set and tracked key metrics including “no decrease in cycle time for product teams” adopting the library, adoption percentage, and number of teams +1 major version back. - Fixed our team standup and reporting processes. A PM role may not be necessary for all DS teams, but the work they do absolutely is. understanding the customer, their jobs to be done, their pain points ensuring that what the team is building fits those needs communicates rollout, adoption, feedback between DS and consuming teams can help the DS team know if their work is working, useful, effective, and if not, where and why That work is absolutely being done by someone on every DS team, possibly badly or it’s being neglected, but we all know we have to know our customers, their needs, communicate to them and receive feedback, and iterate.
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